You have joined channel #gav Topic for #gav: Kanal der GRASS Anwender-Vereinigung e.V. - http://www.grass-verein.de/ Topic for #gav set by markusN on Sun Jun 3 00:50:03 2007 Users on #gav: jan_oliver sholl @ChanServ -ChanServ- [#gav] "Willkommen im IRC Kanal der GRASS Anwender-Vereinigung e.V." #gav :[freenode-info] if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg #gav : created Fri May 11 20:57:47 2007 OK, I think we will start at 10:30 then. lets go :-) for the log: Spehan and myslf are sitting next to each other in real live. Thus we discuss some things directly as long there is nobody else in here. However, this irc log should be the protocol for our decisions, therefore we dump our thoughts here. Basic idea: new top category "Application" replaces old one and covers Silkes proposal Link: http://intevation.de/pipermail/team/2007-May/000394.html Next, we want to introduce two further new top categories, "Features" and "Standards" The top category "Package Format" can be removed, it seems unnecessary. huhabla (i=soeren@kiel.bg.TU-Berlin.DE) has joined channel #gav moin moin hello soeren we are right in creating new top categories. You can see them already in the Software overview I suggest to rename some of the categories of Application to the new more apropriate names. Starting with "Mobile Geocomputing" to "Mobile GIS" ... done. Now "Web Mapping" into "Web GIS" ... done. Now "Base GIS" into "Desktop GIS" aehmm jan_oliver: im a bit lost we are in the process of renaming the categories based on Silkes proposal... ich denke mal wir koennen auch auf deutsch? huhabla: we are currently struggeling with zope for rights-management actually we arranged a english meeting here to involve all who are interested in improving FreeGIS.org oh, ok now i understand Since we log this IRC session for later reference, we keep it english. i did not realized we are in a meeting :) The english guys probably are all still in bed ;-) they will probably join later on. oh, it is loged? In this case i have to go to prevent .... just kidding ;) well, not yet. I will copy my local logs as a log. huhabla: we are currently restructuring the top-categories. ok, now i understand one of the next steps would be to crawl through all entries in FreeGIS and recategorisize them so that they reflect the new structure. Soeren: are you accidently here or did you plan to help with re-categorisation (we could use any help :-) huhabla: you are invited to participate it was an accident :) is there some information around (url) so i can participate? You could read the thread at http://intevation.de/pipermail/team/2007-May/000394.html or do i need to reread the gav mails? thanks Another proposal of Silke is "library". I tend to name it "programming library" ... I would go for simply "library" to keep it simple. software library? i think library would be enough in this context In german it would be "Bibliothek", which sounds a bit strange. hm, in fact, "library" appears most apropriate perhaps in German "Software Bibliothek"? Indeed, in german we would say Software Bibliothek :) OK, lets go for "library" and "Software Bibliothek"?! +1 After all, renaming is not expensive, we could that any later time as long as the meaning does not change. programmers usually talk about "programming library". well ... Howver, I am for just "Bibliothek" in german and see what happens to the users ;-) In fact it could not be misinterpreted. lets rename it later. I create "library" and "Bibliothek" ok OK done. next is "Database". Seems simple ? yes, "Database" and "Datenbank". +1 done. short question: SDI -> spatial data infrastructure? not space defence something .. OK, so we now have all application type which silke proposed. Are there any other important ones? We still have "Misc/Fun" for any other, I guess we must keep it. huhabla: SDI will walk to standards: OGC WMS, OGC WFS, etc soon. I would like to skip fun from that cat. Maybe statsitic software? R and gstat? these software is to important to stay in Misc/fun sholl wonders if R is fun?! For excample "STARS" is fun. PostGIS is well not fun but cool so we need the cat cool? ;) rnuske (i=rnuske@ufobiw.uni-forst.gwdg.de) has joined channel #gav Whole FreeGIS is cool ri rnuske! long awaited... I am missing a category for specific applications like BBBike, Therion, DCMMS, Debrief etc moin something like "others"?! sorry for being late rnuske: moin "Misc" is probably best term. I think we should move PostGIS to Databse and PyWPS to webgis? In German "Verschiedenes" rnuske: moin moin ACK, but I am not happy with "Fun". huhabla: the content reclassification will be done after the coarse cats are done. ok, Soeren: yes, the plan is that after we finished the new categories, we go through all entries and change the categories accordingly. ok So, at least we seem to be OK with renaming "Misc/Fun" to "Misc". +1 Open is the question whether to have "Statistics" and something like "Fachanwendung" (where I lack a suitable english term) how about scientific ? "Statistics" is very narrow. I would suggest something like "scientific"?! :-) i agree with sholl :) what does a FreeGIS user except? What is helpful for him? scientific and statistics are different things perhaps "Statistics" is more a feature than a application I use GRASS for scientific work, at least i hope i do i think scientific is a common concept which includes mathematics, statistics and so on huhabla: yes, thats my opinion too. aht do you want to put under stats? so grass, gstat and R will be listed there together Other way around: which application type to apply for "R"? "Misc"? that is really stats statistic or scientific but makes probaly a very small catergory IMHO we have to have "Statistics" as "Feature" anyway. Because e.g. GRASS has this feature and so have some others. well, database is also a very small cat. sholl: indeed, but users expect to find this ... What about "Fachanwendungen"? Perhaps "R" belongs even there? not really scientific will include: grass, gstat, R, saga, STARS, JGRASS and so on rnuske: what is a the appropriate cat for all of this? THere is also no problem to give on app more cats later on. in case apps can be listed in different topics? that would be my next question how many cats bper enty huhabla: yes, possible. Check PostGIS currently :-/ I think its important to have several cats but what does "scientific" say about the software within this cat, don't use its too complicated? The usability will not be affected The discussion about "Fachanwendung" and "Statistics" seems to need more time, so I propose to leave these under "Misc" for the time being. rnuske: i dont think so, IMHO scientific is not related to complicated maybe I am wrong, we can't have geology, hydrology and stats. and if we put all of this together we get ... OK with my proposal? 0 Mhh, from a point of a scientific user, this would be great. But I assume this is not the usual thinking of Freegis.Org-users. 0 = Stimmenthaltung Lets postpone this, since our time is limited (as always) and we need to go on. Lets discuss this on the mailinglist and think of the sub-cats of "Standards", "Features". First "Features". A first clear fearture is "projection conversion". This should move from Application to Features. Silke named it "reprojection". Not sure which term is better. which one is more common? sholl preferes "one-worders" Google stats :-) ? I like one-wordes too reprojection is a common concept for many things, not only gis visualization, mathematics, numeric and so on google fight has a very clear win for projection conversion If you search for "projection conversion" its only 12000 hits. I like reprojection ...and the german one "Koordinatentransformation"?! okay the " makes hugh difference, now its the other way around, sorry for the misinformation "coordinate transformation" has over 800.000 hits. Seems to be better than all other terms we had so far. jan_oliver: i think this is also related to the wide use of "coordinate transformation" in visualization and numerical methods (FEM) "coordinate transformation" seems good so far huhabla: indeed. But could it be misinterpreted on FreeGIS.org? Also, Wikipedia uses the term "coordinate transformation" for the GIS stuff. I just moved the category from Application to Features since this is clear anyway. IMHO this is missleading, because we use Cartographic Projections Since FreeGIS deals with GIS it is IMO fairly clear that geographic coordinates are ment "coordinate transformation" is much ore general ... but you are right in relation to FreeGIS it would not be misinterpreted so all agree that "coordinate transformation" and "Koordinatentransformation" should be used? +1 sholl agrees as well :+1 +1 next feature: file-format transformation Suggestion: Move "File-Format-Conversion" to features and rename it to "Data conversion", german "Datenformatkonvertierung" Done. BTW: You can see all the categories easily when at https://freegis.org/database/?cat=0 and reload when a change is done. +1 other objections? +1 OK, fine. I assume this as done as well. Cahnge is applied. Next category to discuss: Interactive Viewing and Visulisation can be combined +1 sholl: these are the most complicated I guess. Should be do the no-brainers first? i think Visualization is adequate nobrainer: Move "GPS" as is to "Features" ... ? jan_oliver: easy, +1 IMHO Visualization includes interactivity +1 huhabla: yes, and it should also go to "features" other no-brainers? Nope it shloud stay in Application I dont think ParaView or Vis5D are features? or do i missinterpret the concept of features? no-brainers: flights ?! I am lost with this. jan_oliver gets a coffee. Anyone else? flights -> Visualization? sholl heavily weaves his hands... huhabla drinks some water huhabla: well Vis5D offers the Feartues of extended data-visualization, so feature?! GRASS offers the Feature to visualze data :) correct. I think flights do not need an extra cat, since it is not that important than e.g. databases. Vis5D is designed as a visualization application If we talk about visualization we should distinguish: I think "3D-Visualization" is worth a Feature. "2D" not. jan_oliver: good point. perhaps a feature "3D" is needed? In this case mobile gis is a feature too? sholl: not sure. It is not my field of expertise. What is relevant with the present tools? huhabla: your part about 3D! GRASS offers 2d and 3d visualization which is IMHO state of the art and not a feature dunno What about the Features "3D" and "Animated 3D" ? The latter could cover the current "Flights". its all related to visualization, otherwise we shoud split database into spatial, sql, object orienteated and so on From my limited point of view, 3D is still something special in the GIS world and not the standard. At least this is true for many of our customers. we should remember that only 2 hirarchical levels are available. Perhaps "visualisation" can fit in jan_olivers suggestions. I have indeed a very academical point of view :) I revise my proposal :-) Now: "3D" and "Animations" (because osgPlanet is a 2D-Animation of some sort) suggestion: Visualization in application and 3d in features ...and "animations" contains "flights", all in feratures s/feratures/features/g hm, seems we have at least some agreements: Move "Flights" to "Features" and rename it "Animations", Add "3D" to "Features. +1 +1 +1 sholl pings to rnuske... all done. next: "SDI-Management" can be renamed to "OGC WMS" under "standards"? no clue but im with you ;) I'd prefer "OGC WMS Client" and "OGC WMS Server". And additionally "OGC WFS Client" and "OGC WFS Server". Additionally "OGC Other" ? jan_oliver: OK, this even reflects its position. What about "OGC WCS client" and "OGC WCS Server"? ...and "OGC SLD" sholl: sure, if there are tools for this cateogory. I pospose to only add more when there are at least, say 3, tools. Because there are too many standards to list them all. Imagine all implementations inside deegree. WCS clients/server are deegree, mapserver and... cant think of no more. OK, right. lets start with "OGC WMS Client", "OGC WMS Server", "OGC WFS Client" and "OGC WFS Server" OK. I propose to rename "SDI Management" to "OGC WMS Client" because this is true for all current three entries. And then add the other ones as new items. How about "OGC conform Client" and "OGC conform Server"? "conform" is not a allowed term IIRC. You must pass official tests for this title. bahh sholl did not know that. jan_oliver: renaming: +1 +1 maybe it was the term "Compliant", I do not remember exactly. +1, will do the move. stephan: can you create the new ones? yes. cool. things get cleaner :-) yes, indeed. what about "remote sensing"? topic: "Remote Sensing" is quite difficult. we could think about putting it under feature: scientific, but I am not 100% sure about it. how many entries do we have for RS? Is it worth keeping the cat under features as is? I tend to have it as feature. The term is important, because many users come in and search for this topic. well, yes, thats right. so lets move it to feature then? but: what does it mean for a software to have "remote sensing" features? image processing? Proposal: move "Remote Sensing" to "Features" and postpone a decision on a better name. OK, so we postpone the naming of RS and the discussion about scientific/statistics for later. +1 last topic in applications: Customizable with Add-ons. I would vote to delete this cat, since all Free and Open Source Software is highly customizable at all. +1 sholl looks at Customizable with Add-ons sholl: I am all for removing this category. yes, we can live without that cat. good: we get rid of it. deleted now "Interactive Viewing"? what to do about this one? ugh. Maybe rename it to "Map Brwosing" and make it a feature? IMO it is included into desktop and web gis, since all GIS components except database and libraries have any sort of vis-component. Sorry: "Map Browsing" or "Map Navigation" jan_oliver: Map browsing implies only for web-stuff, but there are also desktop-apps with viewing-capabilities. or "Map Exploration" :-) brb huhabla: please elaborate huhabla is aufm kl* other suggestions for renaming the viewing and visualisation-parts? sholl is away for half an hour to grab some food... "navigation" could be mixed up with car navigation, "exploration" with some propritary software with a similar name. sholl is back sholl is back jan_oliver is away: for food You are marked as being away sholl is away: as well back from meeting I see you covered quite some stuff sholl is back Back from lunch hi there rnuske: yes, we did quite a lot. last remaining topics are visualisation and interactive viewing now. any ideas? silke and I thought about having two cats in feature (Geoprocessing and Geoviewer) to seperate simple geoviewer (qgis, udig) from more sophisticated systems (GRASS) back as well jan_oliver is back You are no longer marked as away "view" is a bit passive. that why I thought of using some term that expresses the interactivity. rnuske: I have not found that in her proposal on freegis-team. ups, was citing from the top of my head browsing instead of viewing? just would welcome a category to distinguish geoprocessing browsing implies only for web-stuff. why, I am browsing when i am looking for a new shirt. and the cow on the meadow is browsing as well ;-) so GRASS is a Map-Browser in your definition? I am not satisfied. i can do a lot more, thus it qualifies for geoprocessing I meant: it can do... what about map-visualization as feature combining "visualization" and interactive viewwing"? then we would have a clear structure in cat "appclication". I am not convinced yet. Maybe "Interactive Map" is the Feature we need? why do we have the vis stuff under appliocation anyway? rnuske: we are about to remove it from, it seems :-) great The more I think about it, the better I like the term "Interactive Map". Any opinions? "Interactive Map" sounds good could I have some geoprocessing as well? rnuske: sure. Currently we try to clean up "Application". Next step is to fill "Features" with more items. i see, I am too hasty I could als drop that vis-stuff at all, since it is kindof obvious that every GIS has a sort of interactive vis componente if it does not belong to libs or db?! at least from applications, yes please and all special visualisation mostly deals with 3D, which is already present?! rnuske: yes, and I do not need any new cat under feature for that. sholl: maybe you are right. back in 1999 when we started FreeGIS.org there was exactly 0 Desktop GIS applications. Some tools were able to produce a static map. Thats why we introduced this category. NP, so for historical reasons. In these days nearly every GIS has its interactive vis-component, so I think no freegis-user will search for visualisation, except he looksfor something special, which is most probaly under 3D. Seems there is agreement to remove "Interactive Viewing" and "Visualization" entirely? sholl goes for it: +1 +1 +1 Does anybody else has an opinion about the above proposal? OK, all, go ahead! Done. so: now cat "application" seems nice and clean. Now it is the time to propose new entries like rnuskes geoprocessing and so forth From Silkes proposal I see some candidates for "Features": "Navigation" and "Digitization" At least digitization seems to be important for users to search. I could imagine that "geoprocessing" and "geostatistics" are worth to add since this are common phrases people search for. sholl: I second these two. OT: we should also GPL (v3) for licenses soon. s/also/also add/g perhaps "Routing" instead of "Navigation". yes, seems good. OK, so here is the proposal: Add "Digitization", "Routing", "Geoprocessing" and "Geostatistics" to "Features". fine: +1 +1 sholl: can you add? sholl: about GPL: we need to be more precise with the GPL licenses. We need "GNU GPLv3" and "GNU GPLv3+", same for v2. The "+" stands for "any later version" and has become important since people discuss v3. jan_oliver: OK. all features added. okay applications, features, and standards are IMO in a good shape now I wonder whether we should have another top category "Status" with categories like "inactive", "archived", "OSGeo Project", "lost" ... ? good idea, but could lead to conflicts... which ones? don't know if projects like to get labled as inactive If someone complains it is active :-) kind of a smoke test In fact I do not want to have degrees of activity. Just inactivity. There are many projects where the main author is unreachable and no one has access to the web pages. Such I call inactive. does freegis list such projects? yes, sure! Sometimes it even happens that a project is reactivated after a year or two by someone interested. then I am totally pro "archived" would mean that the project lost its homepage URL and we only have some tarballs placed at the freegis ftp server. I could also image something like "Debian Packaged" I am convinced sholl: you opinion? sholl needs to catch up. while sholl catches up I added "GNU GPLv3" and "GNU GPLv3+" to "License" Also: We have to rename "Other" to "Other Programming Lanuage" because the meaning is not always clear. well, status stuff seems to be a good idea. I know something about that from the debian project where a status page gives info about the maintaing-status. this would be a nice option to attract new maintainers of the project and is a sort of qualitity review of FreeGIS.org. The layout of the top-cat should be something different than the current cats, because it does not contain real content, only metainformation about the listed projects. OK, so proposal: Add top category "Status" with categories "Archived", "Inactive", "OSGeo Project" I liked "debian packaged", why did you drop it? rnuske: :-) ... we just brainstorm over her in real live. It is important that it comes from stock, i.e. apt-get install xxx without need to add special sources. perhaps also for other distributions? "debian packaged" might not fit 100% "Debian Stock" is to hackish. available for [X] Debian [ ] Suse [ ] Fedora debian is enough rnuske: probaly you are right. The contributors should know what is meant. Debian is a good brand (and also the most GIS-friendly distro). So adding "Debian packaged" seems good, perhaps "Debian stable" I do not want to go into the direction that we list available packages. It is more about the process that a product has undergone. Being a OSGeo Project is one. Being a official Debian package is another one. "Offical Debian Package"? yep, being packaged as a debian paket kind of means it entered mainstream "Offical Debian Package" is quite far of the single-word goal.... i prefer "debian packaged" I would go for "Official Debian packages" one-word rule says "Debian". but I can live with "Debian packaged" I propose "Debian". I am not sure but after browsing the list we do not always have one-words. To "Debian package" seems more appropriate. s/To/So/g OK, so here the new proposal: Add top category "Status" with categories "Archived", "Inactive", "OSGeo Project", "Debian Package" +1 +1 +1 cool :-) We are almost there. The only thing I am still unhappy is the top cateogory "type". Because the only active part of it is Software. The rest is hopelessly old. However, I propose to postpone this part because it does not cause problems for categizing all software entries. Right. So now our "homework" is to recategorisize all entries into our newly created cats. Congrats and thanks to you for you help! We did it! First homework for me is to add a check box "minor change" to avoid emitting an update-email. there is other homework todo: I suggest that we start editing every object in alphabetical order starting from A. - send a summary of our work to the freegis team list and list those items we postponed. Maybe attach a log of this IRC session (or store it on the ftp server?) OK, I will take care of storing the log to the ftp server. shouldnt we put it on the GAV-site since FreeGIS is going to be GAV-powered? - propose a procedure for going through all entries for re-categorisation. Maybe some guideline. Next to this a call for volunteers. It would make fun to arrange another IRC session where people can work concurrently and discuss when in doubt. just some minor questions in the status cat, we don't have a value for projects that are active buit not yet packaged rnuske: no problem. In fact, most packages will not fall into any of the status categories. is that intended s/packages/projects/ i hoped every entry would get a status value yes, intended. Because it is not doable to maintain "positive" stati. Only stati that do rarely change over time are maintainable. I thought that every project which does not have status-flag set is active?